Do we need to build for MIPS, SH for WM 2003+?

Chris Writely · Joined: 05 Dec 2007 Posts: 9

Hi,

I've been trying to find confirmation on the practice of building for MIPS
and SH processors in Visual Studio 2005, instead of just building for ARM.
The closest thing I've found is from a post here by Mr. Robert E. Zaret (see
below).

The reason why I'm a bit confused is a bit long-winded, but anyway, it's
mainly because I'm also doing research on how to create a Windows-based setup
program that automatically copies and runs a .cab file on Windows Mobile
devices. It seems as though all of the examples expect the .ini file going
into CEAppMgr.exe to contain multiple .cab files, one per architecture.

This includes newer, 2005+ examples.

Could anyone confirm the following quote? It's not that I don't believe Mr.
Zaret, it's just that I haven't found anything official on this, plus the
issue above.

If it helps, I'm mainly interested in building for WM 2003 and up.

Quote:
"Microsoft controls the specifications for the Pocket PC platform
(called Windows Mobile Classic and Windows Mobile Professional, as of
Windows Mobile 6). As of Pocket PC 2002, they have decreed that the
platform supports only ARM-compatible CPUs. Also, the SDKs Microsoft
provides do not distinguish among ARM-compatible CPUs. So, unless you
are supporting some other platform(s), you have no need or ability to
support CPUs other than ARM. "

(From: post titled "Generate multi processor cab files on VS2005")

Thank you,
Chris

Archived from group: microsoft>public>pocketpc>developer

Christopher Fairbairn · Joined: 30 Oct 2007 Posts: 57

Hi,

"Chris Writely" wrote in message @microsoft.com...
> Could anyone confirm the following quote? It's not that I don't believe
> Mr.
> Zaret, it's just that I haven't found anything official on this, plus the
> issue above.

Yes Windows Mobile only supports the ARM processor family.

Unlike previous PDA style devices that have also utilised the Windows CE
kernel (such as the HandheldPC platform), processor families such as SH4 or
MIPS are not supported by Windows Mobile.

Hope this helps,
Christopher Fairbairn

Robert Scott · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 137

On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 14:13:48 +1300, "Christopher Fairbairn"
wrote:

>Hi,
>
>"Chris Writely" wrote in message
>@microsoft.com...
>> Could anyone confirm the following quote? It's not that I don't believe
>> Mr.
>> Zaret, it's just that I haven't found anything official on this, plus the
>> issue above.
>
>Yes Windows Mobile only supports the ARM processor family.
>
>Unlike previous PDA style devices that have also utilised the Windows CE
>kernel (such as the HandheldPC platform), processor families such as SH4 or
>MIPS are not supported by Windows Mobile.

But the MIPS processor is supported by the old Embedded Visual C 3.0 compiler,
if you can get a copy. It used to be a free download from Microsoft. Now I see
only version 3.0 on their website.

Robert Scott
Ypsilanti, Michigan

user · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 459

MIPS is supported by Visual Studio too. It's just not an option under the
WinMo SDK, since there are no WinMo MIPS devices. Install an SDK for a MIPS
device and you can target MIPS - same for SuperH.

--

Chris Tacke, eMVP
Join the Embedded Developer Community
http://community.opennetcf.com

"Robert Scott" wrote in message @newsgroups.comcast.net...
> On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 14:13:48 +1300, "Christopher Fairbairn"
> wrote:
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>"Chris Writely" wrote in message
>>@microsoft.com...
>>> Could anyone confirm the following quote? It's not that I don't believe
>>> Mr.
>>> Zaret, it's just that I haven't found anything official on this, plus
>>> the
>>> issue above.
>>
>>Yes Windows Mobile only supports the ARM processor family.
>>
>>Unlike previous PDA style devices that have also utilised the Windows CE
>>kernel (such as the HandheldPC platform), processor families such as SH4
>>or
>>MIPS are not supported by Windows Mobile.
>
> But the MIPS processor is supported by the old Embedded Visual C 3.0
> compiler,
> if you can get a copy. It used to be a free download from Microsoft. Now
> I see
> only version 3.0 on their website.
>
>
> Robert Scott
> Ypsilanti, Michigan

Robert Scott · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 137

On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 08:03:47 -0600, ""
wrote:

>MIPS is supported by Visual Studio too. It's just not an option under the
>WinMo SDK, since there are no WinMo MIPS devices. Install an SDK for a MIPS
>device and you can target MIPS - same for SuperH.

And where do you get this MIPS SDK?

Robert Scott
Ypsilanti, Michigan

user · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 459

From the vendor of your MIPS device. SDKs are specific to the build that
Platform Builder created because CE is a modular OS. There is no such thing
as a general one-size-fits-all SDK unless you have a specifically defined
platform (like WinMo) and even then the SDK may lack some things (which is
why some WinMo vendors have their own SDKs).

--

Chris Tacke, eMVP
Join the Embedded Developer Community
http://community.opennetcf.com

"Robert Scott" wrote in message @newsgroups.comcast.net...
> On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 08:03:47 -0600, ""
>
> wrote:
>
>>MIPS is supported by Visual Studio too. It's just not an option under the
>>WinMo SDK, since there are no WinMo MIPS devices. Install an SDK for a
>>MIPS
>>device and you can target MIPS - same for SuperH.
>
> And where do you get this MIPS SDK?
>
>
> Robert Scott
> Ypsilanti, Michigan

Robert Scott · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 137

On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:52:19 -0600, ""
wrote:

>From the vendor of your MIPS device. SDKs are specific to the build that
>Platform Builder created because CE is a modular OS. There is no such thing
>as a general one-size-fits-all SDK unless you have a specifically defined
>platform (like WinMo) and even then the SDK may lack some things (which is
>why some WinMo vendors have their own SDKs).

Well, when I developed Pocket PC applications for the old Cassio Cassiopia which
used a MIPS processor, I didn't have to go to Cassio to get any SDK (they would
have laughed at me!) The SDK was available from Microsoft as a service pack for
EVC3.0. That's why I suggested that EVC3.0 was the only practical solution for
developing for MIPS Pocket PCs.

Robert Scott
Ypsilanti, Michigan

user · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 459

Yes, and the Pocket PC was a standardized, defined platform, just like WinMo
is and HPC, HPC Pro and PsPC were. That's why they had specific SDKs that
Microsoft could provide. Those devices were running a version of Windows CE
not supported by Studio, so their SDK won't plug into Studio. The original
poster asked about PPC2003 and later, of which *all* are ARM-cores, which is
why the Studio SDK for them doesn't have a MIPS or SHx option.

The MSDN article is still correct in giving info for separate sections for
separate processors in the setup file, because there are still MIPS devices
that exist. That is still very relevent in a general sense for building
installs that target multiple device types. For the original poster,
however, he will only be targeting ARM-based devices based on his original
statement that he's only looking at PPC03 and up. So for him his list of
processors is of length 1. He doesn't need any other SDKs or tools.

--

Chris Tacke, eMVP
Join the Embedded Developer Community
http://community.opennetcf.com

"Robert Scott" wrote in message @newsgroups.comcast.net...
> On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:52:19 -0600, ""
>
> wrote:
>
>>From the vendor of your MIPS device. SDKs are specific to the build that
>>Platform Builder created because CE is a modular OS. There is no such
>>thing
>>as a general one-size-fits-all SDK unless you have a specifically defined
>>platform (like WinMo) and even then the SDK may lack some things (which is
>>why some WinMo vendors have their own SDKs).
>
> Well, when I developed Pocket PC applications for the old Cassio Cassiopia
> which
> used a MIPS processor, I didn't have to go to Cassio to get any SDK (they
> would
> have laughed at me!) The SDK was available from Microsoft as a service
> pack for
> EVC3.0. That's why I suggested that EVC3.0 was the only practical
> solution for
> developing for MIPS Pocket PCs.
>
>
> Robert Scott
> Ypsilanti, Michigan

r_z_aret · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 2774

On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 15:49:34 GMT, ---@--- (Robert Scott) wrote:

>On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:52:19 -0600, ""
>wrote:
>
>>From the vendor of your MIPS device. SDKs are specific to the build that
>>Platform Builder created because CE is a modular OS. There is no such thing
>>as a general one-size-fits-all SDK unless you have a specifically defined
>>platform (like WinMo) and even then the SDK may lack some things (which is
>>why some WinMo vendors have their own SDKs).
>
>Well, when I developed Pocket PC applications for the old Cassio Cassiopia which
>used a MIPS processor, I didn't have to go to Cassio to get any SDK (they would
>have laughed at me!) The SDK was available from Microsoft as a service pack for
>EVC3.0. That's why I suggested that EVC3.0 was the only practical solution for
>developing for MIPS Pocket PCs.

The original Pocket PC platform supported ARM, MIPS, and SH3
processors, so Microsoft's SDK supported all three platforms.
Microsoft has replaced that platform with Windows Mobile platforms,
and those platforms support _only_ ARM processors (Microsoft defines
the platforms and thus the list of supported processors).

So, folks who are willing to support only Windows Mobile can stick
with the Windows Mobile SDKs and have no need to support MIPS or SH3
processors. That will cover all current and many recent retail Windows
PDAs and cell phones.

Folks who are trying to support as many devices as possible, including
some running older platforms from Microsoft and some running platforms
from other folks, have a tougher time. For more info, see:

a 9-13 Aug 07 thread called "Menus and Multiple Platforms" in this
newsgroup

a 30 Aug - 3 Sep 04 thread called "Windows CE 4.x Applications" in
microsoft.public.windowsce.app.development

>
>
>Robert Scott
>Ypsilanti, Michigan

-----------------------------------------
To reply to me, remove the underscores (_) from my email address (and please indicate which newsgroup and message).

Robert E. Zaret, eMVP
PenFact, Inc.
20 Park Plaza, Suite 478
Boston, MA 02116
www.penfact.com

r_z_aret · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 2774

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 15:32:07 -0800, Chris Writely
wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I've been trying to find confirmation on the practice of building for MIPS
>and SH processors in Visual Studio 2005, instead of just building for ARM.
>The closest thing I've found is from a post here by Mr. Robert E. Zaret (see
>below).
>
>The reason why I'm a bit confused is a bit long-winded, but anyway, it's
>mainly because I'm also doing research on how to create a Windows-based setup
>program that automatically copies and runs a .cab file on Windows Mobile
>devices. It seems as though all of the examples expect the .ini file going
>into CEAppMgr.exe to contain multiple .cab files, one per architecture.
>
>This includes newer, 2005+ examples.
>
>Could anyone confirm the following quote? It's not that I don't believe Mr.
>Zaret, it's just that I haven't found anything official on this, plus the
>issue above.

I'm inclined to be fussy about specifications and sources. Especially
when making a decision that can affect a lot of my time and/or money.
So I think you're right not to rely only on my word. I've been trying
to find something official for you, and having a remarkably hard time
($%^&^%$#).

>
>If it helps, I'm mainly interested in building for WM 2003 and up.

That helps a great deal; it means you need deal only with ARM CPUs
(once someone proves this to you:-).

These should at least help clarify some issues:
http://community.opennetcf.com/forums/t/317.aspx
http://www.pocketpcfaq.com/wce/versions.htm

I went to Microsoft's site, did a search for
windows mobile processor
and got many hits. Most described specific devices and listed the
processor. Unfortunately, many ARM-compatible processors do not use
ARM in their name, so I can' easily tell from this list that all the
devices use ARM-compatible processors. I did find this partial answer:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms832323.aspx

This is not Microsoft, but is clear:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocket_PC
(look in the Definition section)

>
>Quote:
>"Microsoft controls the specifications for the Pocket PC platform
>(called Windows Mobile Classic and Windows Mobile Professional, as of
>Windows Mobile 6). As of Pocket PC 2002, they have decreed that the
>platform supports only ARM-compatible CPUs. Also, the SDKs Microsoft
>provides do not distinguish among ARM-compatible CPUs. So, unless you
>are supporting some other platform(s), you have no need or ability to
>support CPUs other than ARM. "
>
>(From: post titled "Generate multi processor cab files on VS2005")
>
>Thank you,
>Chris

-----------------------------------------
To reply to me, remove the underscores (_) from my email address (and please indicate which newsgroup and message).

Robert E. Zaret, eMVP
PenFact, Inc.
20 Park Plaza, Suite 478
Boston, MA 02116
www.penfact.com

Christopher Fairbairn · Joined: 30 Oct 2007 Posts: 57

Hi,

wrote in message @4ax.com...
> On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 15:49:34 GMT, ---@--- (Robert Scott) wrote:
> The original Pocket PC platform supported ARM, MIPS, and SH3
> processors, so Microsoft's SDK supported all three platforms.
> Microsoft has replaced that platform with Windows Mobile platforms,
> and those platforms support _only_ ARM processors (Microsoft defines
> the platforms and thus the list of supported processors).

I think Microsoft naming conventions and name changes help to confuse the
matter. Especially since a number of vendors haven't been fully clear on the
proper naming and use incorrect terms from time to time in marketing
material etc.

From my sometimes foggy memory the Pocket PC platform (first released as
Pocket PC 2000) has always been ARM only, and Pocket PC 2003 was the first
release where Microsoft started using the Windows Mobile name to group
together the Pocket PC and Smartphone variants of the OS.

The older platforms it superceeded such as Handheld PC and Palm-size PC
(which is what you may be thinking of) were the ones which had support for
more than one processor architecture which lead to a developer needing to
create more than one distribution of their software.

For the original poster who asked about Pocket PC 2003 or above (correctly
named Windows Mobile 2003 Pocket PC edition), they only need to worry about
the ARM processor. Since Microsoft has only defined and released the Windows
Mobile platform for this architecture, if their device doesn't have an ARM
processor it will not be running Windows Mobile.

Although the Windows CE kernel and tools such as Visual Studio still support
the other processor families, the original poster won't need to worry about
it. If the reference to Pocket PC 2003 was incorrect and they are attempting
to support something other than a Windows Mobile device (and hence could be
using a different processor architecture) they would need to obtain a
suitable device SDK from the OEM of the device they want to utilise. The
device SDK should enable and configure the right settings within the IDE to
build for the correct processor architecture etc.

Hope this helps,
Christopher Fairbairn

Christopher Fairbairn · Joined: 30 Oct 2007 Posts: 57

Hi,

"Christopher Fairbairn" wrote in message @microsoft.com...
> From my sometimes foggy memory the Pocket PC platform (first released as
> Pocket PC 2000) has always been ARM only.

As soon as I post my mind becomes clearer Sad

, Pocket PC 2000 did indeed
support the three architectures being discussed in this thread. I was
thinking of the PPC 2002 release which started dropping support for anything
but ARM.

How time flies... it seems an eternity since these were the bleeding edge,
freshly released versions of the OS!

Anyway the original point still stands, if developing for Windows Mobile
2003 or above you only need to deal with the ARM architecture.

Sorry for the confusion,
Christopher Fairbairn

Chris Writely · Joined: 05 Dec 2007 Posts: 9

> ...The original poster asked about PPC2003 and later, of which *all* are
> ARM-cores, which is why the Studio SDK for them doesn't have a MIPS
> or SHx option.

Thanks Chris. This also clarifies another question I had about why VS 2005
doesn't have MIPS/SHx installed by default.

Chris Writely

"" wrote:

> Yes, and the Pocket PC was a standardized, defined platform, just like WinMo
> is and HPC, HPC Pro and PsPC were. That's why they had specific SDKs that
> Microsoft could provide. Those devices were running a version of Windows CE
> not supported by Studio, so their SDK won't plug into Studio. The original
> poster asked about PPC2003 and later, of which *all* are ARM-cores, which is
> why the Studio SDK for them doesn't have a MIPS or SHx option.
>
> The MSDN article is still correct in giving info for separate sections for
> separate processors in the setup file, because there are still MIPS devices
> that exist. That is still very relevent in a general sense for building
> installs that target multiple device types. For the original poster,
> however, he will only be targeting ARM-based devices based on his original
> statement that he's only looking at PPC03 and up. So for him his list of
> processors is of length 1. He doesn't need any other SDKs or tools.
>
>
> --
>
> Chris Tacke, eMVP
> Join the Embedded Developer Community
> http://community.opennetcf.com

Chris Writely · Joined: 05 Dec 2007 Posts: 9

> I'm inclined to be fussy about specifications and sources. Especially
> when making a decision that can affect a lot of my time and/or money.
> So I think you're right not to rely only on my word. I've been trying
> to find something official for you, and having a remarkably hard time

Thanks for understanding! It looks like the official confirmation of this is
scattered throughout Microsoft's site, or hidden deep within there someplace.

And thanks also for the reference links.

In any case, the additional confirmation to your original post from the
other experts, as well as your personal reaffirmation, is proof enough for
me. Smile

Thanks,
Chris Writely

> >
> >If it helps, I'm mainly interested in building for WM 2003 and up.
>
> That helps a great deal; it means you need deal only with ARM CPUs
> (once someone proves this to you:-).
>
> These should at least help clarify some issues:
> http://community.opennetcf.com/forums/t/317.aspx
> http://www.pocketpcfaq.com/wce/versions.htm
>
> I went to Microsoft's site, did a search for
> windows mobile processor
> and got many hits. Most described specific devices and listed the
> processor. Unfortunately, many ARM-compatible processors do not use
> ARM in their name, so I can' easily tell from this list that all the
> devices use ARM-compatible processors. I did find this partial answer:
> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms832323.aspx
>
> This is not Microsoft, but is clear:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocket_PC
> (look in the Definition section)
>
> -----------------------------------------
> To reply to me, remove the underscores (_) from my email address (and please indicate which newsgroup and message).
>
> Robert E. Zaret, eMVP
> PenFact, Inc.
> 20 Park Plaza, Suite 478
> Boston, MA 02116
> www.penfact.com
>

Chris Writely · Joined: 05 Dec 2007 Posts: 9

"Christopher Fairbairn" wrote:

> Anyway the original point still stands, if developing for Windows Mobile
> 2003 or above you only need to deal with the ARM architecture.
>

Thanks for that Chris, and your previous post as well. It's good to know
about the history of this for me since I'm still relatively "new" to Windows
Mobile development.

Cheers,
Chris Writely

> Sorry for the confusion,
> Christopher Fairbairn
>

Cannot build BTPAIR example Hello! I am trying to build BTPAIR - but compiler says that Quote: : error LNK2019: unresolved external symbol BthApiDllMain referenced in function DllMain :

Build 18125 for the Emulator Hi MS- My emulator has Build 17740 of the OS <5.2.1235> I'm working on a Blackjack II that has Build 18125 <5.2.1620> There seems to be a bit of difference in the notifications for Appointments (which I am trying to work with, otherwise, I wouldn't care)

build a simple application runs on ppc Hi, I would like to build a simple database (with Access) applicatoin, which allows users to edit, add and delete records, with some simple validation. What kind of programming tools should I use? Or I better to buy some software like DBAnywhere, TracerP

build bootloader link error Hi, I'm try to write the WM5.0 bootloader for Samsung 2410. Do anyone know what's wrong with those two errors? I found there is a "/GS" option in makefile.def and the compiler will force to check stack overflow. Anyone know how to fix the link errors? Th

How do I get the CellPhone Corps2 build a Magnifying Lens n We have designed, patented and produced 2 different styles of cellPhone magnifiers and handheld electronic magnifiers for seniors,baby boomers & vision impaired. We have been unable to convince the cellPhone Industry that Even though they want phones sma